Killer in the family podcast

Episode 20 - Rachel and Lilly Souza

February 09, 2024 Clare Laxton Episode 20
Episode 20 - Rachel and Lilly Souza
Killer in the family podcast
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Killer in the family podcast
Episode 20 - Rachel and Lilly Souza
Feb 09, 2024 Episode 20
Clare Laxton

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On 22 January 2006 in Hopkinton Massachusetts, 27 year old Rachel Entwistle and 9 month old Lillian were found dead in the house they shared with husband and father Neil. He was nowhere to be found however. 

 

Having fled back to his homeland of Nottinghamshire in the UK, Neil was arrested and brought back to the US to face trial for the murder of his wife and baby. Facing huge debts, seeking sex online and leading a double life, Neil tried the common trope of the family annihilator to blame his wife for the deaths. Ultimately, he was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for killing his wife and baby. 

 

This is the story of Rachel and Lillian, Lilly, Souza. 

 

Information and support 

·       Samaritans UK Contact Us | Samaritans 

·       National Domestic Violence Helpline UK 0808 2000 247 

·       Advocacy After Fatal Domestic Abuse (AAFDA) Home - AAFDA 

·       Women’s Aid www.womensaid.org.uk  

·       Mental health support USA I'm looking for mental health help for myself | Mental Health America (mhanational.org) 

·       Domestic abuse helpline USA 1.800.799.SAFE Domestic Violence Support | National Domestic Violence Hotline (thehotline.org) 

 

References 

 

Vote for Killer in the family for Listener’s Choice! True Crime Awards 2024 - Listeners' Choice

 

Follow Killer in the family on WhatsApp WhatsApp Channel Invite

 

Heartless: The True Story of Neil Entwistle and the Cold Blooded Murder of His Wife and Child: Amazon.co.uk: Mcphee, Michele: 9781250037688: Books

 

Murders of Rachel and Lillian Entwistle - Wikipedia

 

Rachel Elizabeth Souza Entwistle (1978-2006) - Find a Grave Memorial

 

The light in the upstairs bedroom (nbcnews.com)

 

https://youtu.be/iM1KdQERTbg

 

Timeline: Neil Entwistle murder case | US news | The Guardian

 

Family Of Entwistle Victims Releases Statement On 10th Anniversary Of Murders - CBS Boston (cbsnews.com)

 

Dr David Holmes Interview | Crime and Investigation (archive.ph)

 

Credits 

Hosted and created by Clare Laxton @ladylaxton 

Produced by: Clare Laxton  

https://killerinthefamilypodcast.buzzsprout.com  

Music by Tom Box and from Pixabay. 

Support the Show.

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Send us a Text Message.

On 22 January 2006 in Hopkinton Massachusetts, 27 year old Rachel Entwistle and 9 month old Lillian were found dead in the house they shared with husband and father Neil. He was nowhere to be found however. 

 

Having fled back to his homeland of Nottinghamshire in the UK, Neil was arrested and brought back to the US to face trial for the murder of his wife and baby. Facing huge debts, seeking sex online and leading a double life, Neil tried the common trope of the family annihilator to blame his wife for the deaths. Ultimately, he was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for killing his wife and baby. 

 

This is the story of Rachel and Lillian, Lilly, Souza. 

 

Information and support 

·       Samaritans UK Contact Us | Samaritans 

·       National Domestic Violence Helpline UK 0808 2000 247 

·       Advocacy After Fatal Domestic Abuse (AAFDA) Home - AAFDA 

·       Women’s Aid www.womensaid.org.uk  

·       Mental health support USA I'm looking for mental health help for myself | Mental Health America (mhanational.org) 

·       Domestic abuse helpline USA 1.800.799.SAFE Domestic Violence Support | National Domestic Violence Hotline (thehotline.org) 

 

References 

 

Vote for Killer in the family for Listener’s Choice! True Crime Awards 2024 - Listeners' Choice

 

Follow Killer in the family on WhatsApp WhatsApp Channel Invite

 

Heartless: The True Story of Neil Entwistle and the Cold Blooded Murder of His Wife and Child: Amazon.co.uk: Mcphee, Michele: 9781250037688: Books

 

Murders of Rachel and Lillian Entwistle - Wikipedia

 

Rachel Elizabeth Souza Entwistle (1978-2006) - Find a Grave Memorial

 

The light in the upstairs bedroom (nbcnews.com)

 

https://youtu.be/iM1KdQERTbg

 

Timeline: Neil Entwistle murder case | US news | The Guardian

 

Family Of Entwistle Victims Releases Statement On 10th Anniversary Of Murders - CBS Boston (cbsnews.com)

 

Dr David Holmes Interview | Crime and Investigation (archive.ph)

 

Credits 

Hosted and created by Clare Laxton @ladylaxton 

Produced by: Clare Laxton  

https://killerinthefamilypodcast.buzzsprout.com  

Music by Tom Box and from Pixabay. 

Support the Show.

Speaker 1:

Hi there and welcome to Killer and the Family podcast. I'm your host, claire Lachston. Before we delve into this week's episode, I just wanted to do a quick couple of reminders. One was that you can now follow Killer and the Family podcast on WhatsApp. I'll put the link in the episode notes and on there I just do links to episodes and also other bits of news that might come up in the week. Also, I would be so grateful if you had a couple of minutes to nominate Killer and the Family podcast for listeners choice award at this year's True Crime Awards. Again, I'll pop a link in the episode notes as well, and thank you so much in advance. So on to today's episode. This is going to be a tough listen, as all the episodes are, but this one especially.

Speaker 1:

On the 22nd of January 2006, in Hopkinson, massachusetts, 27-year-old Rachel Entwistle and her nine-month-old daughter Lily were found dead in the house they shared with husband and father Neil. He was nowhere to be found. Having fled back to his homeland of Nottingham shire in the UK, neil was arrested and brought back to the US to face trial for the murder of his wife and baby. Facing huge debts, seeking sex online and leading a double life, neil tried the common trope of the family annihilator, which was to blame his wife for the deaths. Ultimately, he was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for killing his wife and baby. This is the story of Rachel and Lillian Lily Sousa. The story of Rachel and Lily is one that crossed the Atlantic. It was covered widely in the media both in the UK and the US, and I've not only used news articles for this episode, but also a dateline episode, a documentary and the book Heartless, the true story of Neil Entwistle and the cold-blooded murder of his wife and child by Michelle McPhee. All the sources, as usual, are linked to the episode notes.

Speaker 1:

So Rachel Sousa was born in Weymouth, massachusetts, on the 14th of December 1978. She was born to parents Priscilla and Paul Sousa and had a brother called Jerome. Her father sadly died in 1988 when she was just 10 years old and he was just 36 years old. Her mother subsequently remarried and Rachel became a much-loved stepdaughter to Joe Matarazzo. She also acquired two stepbrothers and two stepsisters Joseph Michael, mary Beth and Erica. Rachel was described by friends as sprightly full of energy and said that everyone just loved her when they met her. Now, in 1999, rachel spread her wings and travelled to York in England as an exchange student to study at the University of York. She joined the rowing club and was the cox for the rowing team. Now, according to Dateline, her friend in the rowing club, caroline, said that her role was quote. She sat at the end of the boat and yelled things at the boys, told them to row and she was great for this because she was pretty short. Now at the rowing club at the University of York she met a fellow student, a handsome English student called Neil.

Speaker 1:

Neil Entwistle was born on the 18th of September 1978 in Nottinghamshire, very near me, actually in Worksock. He grew up with his parents, cliff and Yvonne, and his younger brother Russell. His father was a coal miner and his mother worked in a school canteen and Neil was what Dateline called a striver From working class routes. He wanted to make money and more for his life. Maybe he was why he was attracted to Rachel. She was sort of living the American dream. Now, according to some of Entwistle's childhood friends, he was the go-to guy for computer stuff when he was growing up. So it was no surprise that he went on to study electrical engineering and then business management at the University of York, and obviously it was there when he met Rachel. Now, apparently to Rachel, neil was this dashing and handsome Englishman who wooed her with poems and declarations of love and soon they were madly in love. Rachel's friend, carolyn, talked about how much Neil liked Rachel quote I would see him like opening the door for her and he was very polite. I think he always called when he said he would call her. You know the things that you're hoping to find when you're meeting a new guy. He adored her.

Speaker 1:

Now we've talked before about something called lovebombing, where someone quickly declares love on, literally bombard someone with romantic and intense gestures right at the beginning of a relationship. Scott Peterson did this a lot with his relationships and his extramarital affairs and it's a tactic used by abusers all the time and it's used to create that intimacy and dependence on a relationship very quickly. It's also one of the stages of the domestic homicide timeline created by Professor Jane Moncton Smith that we've talked about before Now. This relationship and Rachel and Neil's relationship seemed to follow that initial pattern of lovebombing from Neil towards Rachel. Their relationship developed quickly and was intense, but Rachel had to leave the UK after her studies. But in 2001 she actually returned and worked as a teacher in Redditch in Worcestershire. She worked as an English drama and theatre studies teacher at St Augustine's Catholic High School.

Speaker 1:

At this point, entwistle worked at Kinetic, which was spelt with about three cues, which is a defence technology company. He was working in Mulvern, which is about a 50 minute drive from Redditch. I think at this point they were living together in Worcestershire, but I'm not 100% sure. Their relationship continued and they actually got married in Plymouth, massachusetts, on the 23rd of August 2003 and continued living in Worcestershire together. It was after their wedding that Neil's schemes for making money seemed to start in earnest. He registered websites for startup businesses, including MillionMakercouk and one called SRPublicationscouk that actually offered a manual for penis enlarging. I was thinking about this case and why Neil was so keen on making money and registering all these websites and having all of these side businesses. I wonder if it was what Dateline referred to before as him being a striver and his working class upbringing and wanting to just make more and more money as much as possible.

Speaker 1:

Lillian Rose Entwistle was born on the 9th of April 2005 and Rachel absolutely loved being a mother. She had a website that was called RachelNealorg and she was constantly sharing photos of her and Entwistle and Lillian Lillie as well. She was obviously just so in love with her baby daughter and really enjoying being a mother. It was at this point that Rachel Entwistle decided to move to the USA to start a new life there. They initially moved in with Joe and Priscilla, rachel's mum and stepfather, with plans to rent their own house soon. Joe and Priscilla really liked Entwistle. They said that he presented himself as impeccable and once they lived together, joe and Entwistle started spending a lot of time together. Joe took him to the gun range and taught him to shoot, and the family were just enjoying spending time together and watching Lillie grow up.

Speaker 1:

So in early January 2006, rachel and Entwistle finally got their own place in a place called Hotkinton, which is about an hour's drive from Joe and Priscilla. According to Michelle McPhee in her book, the house was not a modest one Four bedrooms, a hot tub and was costing about $2,700 a month in rent. Now, considering this is 18 years ago, that seems quite a lot. So quickly after they moved in as well, entwistle leased a BMW for about $400 a month. Rachel did initially question where they had all this money and where it was coming from, since, as they'd moved to the US, entwistle wasn't actually working. He told Rachel that he was getting $10,000 a month from his job back in the UK. He absolutely wasn't, though. I'm not sure what company would pay someone after they'd left them, particularly $10,000 a month, but they seemed like a pretty happy family starting their new and exciting chapter of their life. It seemed that Entwistle, though, all was not well. It was this point on the 16th and 17th of January 2006,. He was actually googling the best way to kill someone and things like knife and net kill and quick suicide method.

Speaker 1:

Thursday, the 19th of January 2006, was the last time anyone saw or spoke to Rachel and Lily that evening. Rachel had spoken to her friend, joanna, and they'd arranged dinner for that weekend. Rachel was also hosting her mum for lunch that weekend too, so I'm sure she had all those plans in her head as she went to bed that night. The 21st of January rolled around, it was a Saturday and Joanna and her sister were at the whistles ready for dinner. As Michelle McPhee said, quote they're ringing the doorbell. They peer in the window. They see no sign of Rachel, no sign of the baby and no sign of Neil. Really concerned, joanna called Rachel's mother and she didn't know where she was either. So they agreed it was probably best to call the police.

Speaker 1:

Officers came out of the house that night to do a welfare check. They entered the house and didn't find anyone. They went from room to room but couldn't see any of the family and the car. The BMW wasn't in the garage either. Apparently the TV was still on, there was still music coming from Lilly's room and the duvet was rumpled on the bed in the master bedroom. But they couldn't find anyone.

Speaker 1:

Now I just want to give a huge props to Rachel's friend, joanna, by the way. She knew something wasn't right and raised the alarm immediately, like Shanann Watts' friend way back in episode one. And Joanna was actually so concerned that she slept in her car that night in the Entwistel's driveway waiting for her friend to come back or for news of her friend. So when no one appeared the next morning the family filed a missing persons report and Joe, rachel's stepfather called a friend who was a retired cop. According to Dateline, this cop said that there probably weren't many good scenarios here.

Speaker 1:

Now, because of the missing persons report and because the family hadn't reappeared, detectives from the Hopkinson police decided to go back to the house and search it again. So they went back the next day, which was Sunday, the 22nd of January, and as soon as they entered the house they knew something wasn't right. Smell, just wasn't right. So this is going to be a tough lesson team.

Speaker 1:

The detectives, once they'd got up to the master bedroom, lifted the duvet off the bed and they saw Rachel and Lily. They described it as horrific. They knew who they were looking at Rachel and baby Lily dead in the bed together, almost as though they'd been sleeping together. Rachel was in the fetal position and Lily was in front of her. One of the detectives on the documentary I watched said that seeing a baby dead is something that they will never forget. They initially thought Rachel and Lily had died of suffocation or poisoning, but that was something that had to be investigated. Knowing what they found, they continued their search for the missing member of the family, neil Entwisall. He was nowhere to be found in the house and detectives didn't think that it was a break-in or a robbery, as there was no sign of a break-in and there were still lots and lots of valuables in the house.

Speaker 1:

Seeing the discovery of Rachel and Lily question on everyone's lips was the same when was Neil Entwisall? We've covered so many stories so far where police have found a family dead, murdered and their husband and father nowhere to be seen. The absolute cowardice of family annihilators will never cease to amaze me. Entwisall is no different. So, while his wife and baby daughter were being discovered dead in their house, entwisall was thousands of miles away flying home to the UK. Now, when he does eventually talk to the police, he claims that he came home to find Rachel and Lily dead and that he thinks Rachel killed Lily Another common trope of the annihilator, as we've talked about blaming their wives, who can't defend themselves.

Speaker 1:

But instead of I don't know administering CPR, calling an ambulance or police, calling neighbours or trying to do something to help his beloved wife and baby girl, entwisall calmly walks out, got in his car and drove away. Now he said that he drove to Joe and Priscilla's house to tell them what happened. Actually, he drove to Joe and Priscilla's house to put a gun back that he had taken from Joe. Now, after he got to their house and they weren't home, he then withdrew $800 in cash and bought a one-way ticket to London from Logan Airport, seemingly the next logical step for someone that has just found their wife and child dead. He arrived in London and he travelled up to Nottinghamshire and appeared at his parents' home in Workshop.

Speaker 1:

Now, neil arrived at his parents' home on Monday, the 23rd of January 2006. He told them that Rachel and Lily dead and that he came home to find them dead and both were shot. Now, as you remember, the police didn't actually know what the cause of death was at that point. So for him to know that they'd both been shot seems quite incredible. So Entwisall's father called the police and actually handed Neil's passport in and he called Joe, Rachel's stepfather. Joe and Entwistle talked on the phone and he asked Neil why he ran away. He said he didn't know and Joe immediately called the police to let them know that Entwistle was already at the UK, in the UK and at his parents in WorkSop. Now the police arranged a phone interview with Entwistle to find out what he knew and what had happened. Again, neil told them that he'd found Rachel and Lily dead and that they had been shot. Now the police were as surprised as we were to hear that, because the autopsies hadn't been done at that point and they hadn't ascertained that Rachel and Lily had been shot. So how did he know that? Entwistle also said that after he found them, he went downstairs to find a knife to kill himself, but he didn't do it Another very strange reaction for someone who was completely innocent and had just come home to find his family dead.

Speaker 1:

It was at this point that detectives decided to dig deeper into Neil and Rachel's life, and it turned out that for the failing to set up a business online with his electrical engineering degree, entwistle turned to the darker side of the internet, as we talked about before. Not only did he set up those websites promising millions in return and a heinous enlargement manual, but he also set up loads of scamsites selling things on eBay. Basically, it turned out that Entwistle's were completely broke, but Rachel didn't know it. That $10,000 a month that he claimed he was getting from his previous employer was absolutely false and he was actually about $30,000 to $40,000 in debt. His debt was rising every single month, but his desire to maintain that image of a perfect, wealthy family was so strong. He was also searching for sex online and peddling amateur pornography to make money. He actually posted a naked photo of himself on the website Adult Friend Finder, which was looking for hookups. I say a photo of himself. He actually photoshopped someone else's private pass on. So the image that he is projecting externally was one of a strong family man, you know, really wealthy, doing well, happy family. But that is absolutely not what was happening underneath. And 10 days before he killed his wife and baby he moved them into a new house and was still keeping up those appearances of being a wealthy, happy family. Now Rachel apparently did actually start to ask questions when they moved in, because Bill started coming in and the electricity company were threatening to cut them off. So she was obviously getting really suspicious and for detectives all of this was enough evidence to issue an arrest warrant for Entwistle On February, the 9th 2006,.

Speaker 1:

Entwistle was arrested by Scotland Yards Extradition Unit, royal Oak Tube Station in London, for the murder of Rachel and Lily. On the 15th of February he was extradited to Massachusetts. Now Massachusetts is a minority of US states which doesn't have the death penalty, which was why he could be extradited there. So the UK generally doesn't extradite people to states that do have the death penalty. So he was extradited to Massachusetts and was there waiting for his trial. Now the Middlesex County District Attorney, martha Coakley, told a press conference after Entwistle's arrest quaked On Thursday night, 19th January 2006,.

Speaker 1:

Rachel was alive and had spoken with family members At some time. On Friday morning Neil Entwistle, with a firearm we believe he had secured at some time before that from Father-in-law Joseph Matarazzo, shot Rachel Entwistle in the head and then proceeded to shoot baby Lillian who was lying on the bed next to her mother. We believe this was intended to be a murder suicide. We cannot confirm that. Obviously the murder was affected, but the suicide was not. What we believe happened next was that Neil Entwistle returned the gun to his father-in-law's home in Carver, then made preparations to leave the country. As we know, he was observed at Logan International Airport. He purchased a one-way ticket on British Airways at approximately 5am on Saturday morning 22nd January. He was on an 815 flight to the United Kingdom that day.

Speaker 1:

Based upon forensic information late Tuesday afternoon that linked the 22 handgun owned by Joe Matarazzo both to Neil Entwistle and to Rachel, we believe we have a probable cause to seek an arrest warrant for Neil Entwistle's arrest. So the police and prosecutors believe that they had that evidence. So they arrested Neil. As we've talked about Now, at his arraignment he pleaded not guilty in the murder of Rachel and Lily and again we see the selfish actions of a family and I later putting their families through a harrowing wait and a trial, and Rachel and Lily's family had to wait over two years just for his trial to even start, and it started in Middlesex Superior Court in Woburn, massachusetts, on the 2nd of June 2008.

Speaker 1:

Now, according to Dateline episode, the prosecutors had a real mix back when it came to forensic evidence. Now, although the initial thought, as we said, that Rachel and Lily had been poisoned, they had actually been shot. The police tested all the guns at Entwistle father-in-law's Joe's house and found that there was Entwistle's DNA on one of the guns. During the trial, according to Dateline, a forensic chemist showed jurors the pillowcase that Rachel and Lily had rested their heads on when they were killed. The chemist testified that, based on tests for gunshot residue, rachel was probably shot from about 18 inches away, while baby Lily had the revolver's muzzle pressed against her chest. She said that this was a contact shot. She said quote a contact shot is from a firearm when the firearm is pressed directly against the target. Now it's just horrific that someone could do that to their baby daughter.

Speaker 1:

And, as the prosecution talked through their evidence for Entwistle's motivation his debt, looking for sex elsewhere with failing businesses. One of the most interesting testimonies in the trial came from Rachel's stepfather, joe. Joe talked about when Entwistle was in workshop workshop that January after Rachel and Lily had been killed. He spaked him several times on the phone and once they discussed funeral arrangements and Joe thought that he heard a slip. So, quote, joe Matarazzo, he asked me if Rachel and Lily could be buried together. Prosecutor, when did he say anything further? Joe Matarazzo, yes, he says, because that's the way I left them. I mean, that's the way I found them, prosecutor, and that's your best recollection of what he said. Joe Matarazzo, that's exactly what he said. Keeping it classy, entwistle didn't even bother to turn up to Rachel and Lily's funeral.

Speaker 1:

So the prosecution case had rested and the defense case shocked many as it proposed that not only was Neil Entwistle not a killer, but that he was a loving husband and father who had simply come home to his wife, having killed his baby and then herself Once again, family and I later blaming his wife, who could not defend herself for his own crimes. Now Dateline actually spoke to a couple of jurors from the case and asked quote, what was the most perplexing part of the story? Ashley Suzer, a jury, said quote I couldn't understand why he didn't call 911. We didn't know if maybe things were different in England. Maybe they didn't know what 911 means. I mean, that's what's got me. Why wouldn't he call 911? And alternate juror Scott also agreed quote they had a very part of you know why he didn't. Why didn't he contact someone? And that was the question that so many people asked during the trial. What was his motivation? Now asked many years later.

Speaker 1:

In an interview for the website Witness, dr David Holmes, a forensic psychologist, said that he thought Entwistle had created perfect marriage image in his head, and Rachel and Lily were just elements of that, he said quote as the computer enhanced narcissistic image of a perfect life fell apart due to his not understanding the emotional realities of family life, his wife and child were no longer needed. There was little true feeling for his family when alive or during that killing. Entwistle also created a very different, sexually sorted image for himself online. And there was another theory by Professor Christopher Cordes, who was a professor of forensic psychiatry at the University of Sheffield. He claims that he thought Neil Entwistle was actually living with Asperger's syndrome, and Dr Holmes said that this could be true, but it wouldn't change the fact that Entwistle deliberately killed his wife and child and clear consciousness. And I think it's really interesting that from both of these experts we are hearing about that trait of narcissism again. And if you remember, way back in episode one, christopher Watts was seen to be like a quiet narcissist, so not a sort of outspoken extrovert, actually still a narcissist whose image and the way people thought of him and what people thought of him was so important, and I do wonder if that's what we're seeing again here Now.

Speaker 1:

On the 25th of June 2008, neil Entwistle was found guilty for the first degree murder of his wife and daughter. He was sentenced to two life sentences without the possibility of parole. In response, rachel's mother and stepfather, Priscilla and Joe, said quote Priscilla and myself would just like to thank everyone for the prayers and cards and hundreds of cards they've sent us and support in this country and from Britain. Her students, friends St Augustine's school sent cards and essays and it was greatly appreciated. Now, in slight contrast to this, entwistle's parents said quote we know that our son Neil is innocent. We are devastated to learn that the evidence points to Rachel murdering our grandchild and then committing suicide. Indeed, entwistle's parents continue to campaign for his release even today and assert that Rachel killed Lily and herself. They believe and publicly state that he will eventually be cleared and released from prison. And in October 2008, they actually filed a complaint of harassment with the UK Press Complaints Commission against their local newspaper, the Works Up Guardian. The complaint was rejected. Now Entwistle's conviction was automatically appealed and that was rejected, and he filed subsequent appeals as well. But by January the 20th, by January 2013, he had exhausted all of his appeals.

Speaker 1:

On the 2nd of February 2006, rachel and Lily were buried together in Evergreen Cemetery in Kingston, massachusetts. They had the surname Sousa on their graves. You'll notice that the episode is titled with Sousa rather than Entwistle as their surname Also Lily and birth and death certificates were edited to read Father Unknown. And in the years since Joe and Priscilla established the Rachel and Lily and Rose Foundation to raise awareness of domestic violence. Joe think the foundation is active anymore as I couldn't find a website, but on the 10 year anniversary of their deaths, joe and Priscilla said quote Under the tragic event of January 2006, we know Rachel would have agreed with us in establishing a foundation for domestic abuse and child abuse so no other families would have to endure the pain and suffering that our family has had to endure with their loss. This episode is dedicated to Rachel and Lily Sousa, who died together and will be remembered together for their smiles and joy they brought to their family and friends.

Speaker 1:

This has been Killer in the Family podcast, written and produced by me, claire Laxton, with music from the brilliant Tom Box and Pixabay. I'll be back next week with another episode, so please subscribe whenever you get your podcast. Do let me know any stories you'd like me to cover as well, and don't forget that you can follow Killer in the Family podcast on WhatsApp. Until then, I've been Claire Laxton. This is Killer in the Family podcast. Until next time, take care.

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