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Killer in the family podcast
A true crime podcast exploring men who kill their families.
Killer in the family podcast
Episode 55 - Julie Dart and Stephanie Slater Part Two
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In July 1991 18 year old Julie Dart was kidnapped from Leeds and forced to write ransom letters to her boyfriend and mother. Kept in a workshop by her kidnapper she tried to escape and was killed. Her body was found in Lincolnshire nine days later. In January 1992 25 year old Stephanie Slater was kidnapped while showing a house as an estate agent. She was taken to the same workshop while her kidnapper sent random notes to her employer. Once he had collected the ransom money Stephanie was let go and dropped off back to her family. She survived the kidnapping but sadly died of cancer in 2017 just aged 50 years old. Both women were kidnapped by serial predator Michael Sams who is still serving his life sentence today.
This is Part Two of the story of Julie Dart and Stephanie Slater.
Information and support
· Samaritans UK Contact Us | Samaritans
· National Domestic Violence Helpline UK 0808 2000 247
· Advocacy After Fatal Domestic Abuse (AAFDA) Home - AAFDA
· Women’s Aid Home - Women's Aid
· National Domestic Abuse Helpline UK 0808 2000 247
· Mental health support USA Mental Health America | Homepage | Mental Health America
· Domestic abuse helpline USA 1.800.799.SAFE Domestic Violence Support | National Domestic Violence Hotline
References
BBC Sounds - The Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater - Available Episodes
Beyond Fear By Stephanie Slater | Used | 9781857022865 | World of Books
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leeds-letter-man-bonus/id1448151398?i=1000678752400
Kidnap victim's boss tells of fear during ransom drop | The Independent | The Independent
BBC NEWS | England | West Yorkshire | 'Jail life better for pensioners'
Credits
Hosted and created by Clare Laxton @ladylaxton
Produced by: Clare Laxton
Killer in the family podcast (buzzsprout.com)
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Hi there and welcome to Killer in the Family podcast. I'm your host, claire Laxton. Welcome to episode 55 of Kill it In the Family podcast and part two of our story about Julie and Stephanie. Let's get straight into this episode. In July 1991, 18-year-old Julie Dart was kidnapped from Leeds and forced to write ransom letters to her boyfriend and mother. Was kidnapped from Leeds and forced to write ransom letters to her boyfriend and mother. Kept in a workshop by her kidnapper, she tried to escape and was killed. Her body was found in Lincolnshire nine days later.
Speaker 1:In January 1992, 25-year-old Stephanie Slater was kidnapped while showing a house as an estate agent. She was taken to the same workshop, while her kidnapper sent ransom notes to her employer. Once he'd collected the ransom money, stephanie was let go and dropped off back to her family. She survived the kidnapping but sadly died of cancer in 2017, just aged 50 years old. Both women were kidnapped by serial predator Michael Sams, who is still serving his life sentence today.
Speaker 1:This is part two of the story of Julie Dart and Stephanie Slater. Thank you. This is definitely going to be a tough listen team and, as you know, it's a bit of a different story than I usually do. It doesn't concern a man who killed his whole family, but does concern a man who's a serial predator and who could have gone on to be a serial killer if he wasn't stopped by the bravery of his last victim, stephanie Slater. If you haven't already listened to part one, I'd recommend going back to listen to that episode before listening to this one. And just as a reminder, as research for this episode, I've listened to a brilliant podcast many times that was originally recommended to me by my friend, kate. The Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast was created and hosted by Andy Whittaker from BBC Nottingham and is a deep dive into the case. It not only tells the stories of Julie and Stephanie, but also talks to their families and experts in the system to try and disentangle what happened to them. The podcast has two seasons and is available on BBC Sounds. I've linked to it in the episode notes and I highly recommend a listen. I've also read Stephanie's book, which she wrote a few years after her ordeal, and listened to a couple of other podcasts on the case too. All sources are linked in the episode notes. Now you'll be hearing from Andy Whittaker, who created the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast, throughout this episode, as I did an exclusive interview with him earlier this month in BBC Nottingham.
Speaker 1:So we left the stories of Julie Dart and Stephanie Slater in part one, with Stephanie being kidnapped and held in a workshop in Newark, nottinghamshire, by serial perpetrator Michael Sams. Although in this episode we're going to be talking a lot about what happened after Stephanie was kidnapped and the aftermath we cannot forget at this point Sams had already killed and murdered a young woman, julie Dart. Julie was just 18 years old when she was kidnapped and murdered by Sams in 1991. She had her whole life ahead of her and he killed her in cold blood. We cannot forget her or what she went through as we go through this episode. So we left Stephanie being held captive in a workshop in Newark, spending most of her time in a horrific contraption made by Michael Sams, which was like a wooden box inside a wheelie bin. She was surviving by making conversation with Sams and trying to remind him that she was a human being and that he didn't have to kill her.
Speaker 1:While Stephanie was trying to survive, sams was out negotiating a ransom with her employers in Birmingham, shipways estate agents. Soon after Stephanie was kidnapped, kevin Watts, her boss at Shipways estate agents, received a call. That was Stephanie's recorded message on a cassette saying that she. Soon after Stephanie was kidnapped, kevin Watts, her boss at Shipways Estate Agents, received a call. That was Stephanie's recorded message on a cassette saying that she was okay and that a ransom drop would be organised for the end of January. Kevin immediately called the police and they agreed to support him with the ransom drop. He also immediately agreed that Shipways was going to put up the £175,000 for the ransom. May we all have a boss like Kevin Watts.
Speaker 1:Over the next few days, kevin received more calls from Sam's with various instructions about what to do and where to go. The date for the ransom drop was set, as was the first location he had to go to. Now, an important aspect of the ransom drop was that Sam's didn't know that the police were involved. He didn't know that they were recording all his calls to Kevin or that they would be following Kevin as he made the drop Later on, the recordings of those calls would become very important indeed Now. As I mentioned in last week's episode, the police had also struck a deal with the media that they don't report on the kidnapping. To try and keep Stephanie alive, they issued the media with something called a de-notice which prohibited them from reporting on Stephanie's kidnap. But they also promised the media that if they kept it quiet then they would get to speak to Stephanie if she came home safely. More on that later as well. So the ransom drop was on.
Speaker 1:In late January Kevin Watts started his journey to Glossop train station More train connections from train buff Michael Sams which is in High Peak in Derbyshire. It's just southeast of Manchester. He went to receive a phone call at 7pm that evening On the last call to arrange the ransom drop. Sam said that he was in Glossop at that point. It was about three o'clock in the afternoon and that it was sunny and fine weather.
Speaker 1:Now, according to the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast, kevin immediately set off, which was probably the most nerve-wracking drive of his life. It was about 80 miles, would take under two hours. And again, little did Sam know that the police were following his every move. Detective Bob Taylor from West Yorkshire Police joined Andy on his podcast and talked about how major crimes took over this operation and formed a sort of protected bubble around Kevin as he drove. So police were following his every move in every direction. Kevin also had a radio, so police were also hearing his every move as well. Their plan was for Kevin to drop the money and for them to swoop in and arrest the kidnapper. So Kevin got to Glossop train station and took the phone call from the payphone in the entrance.
Speaker 1:At 7pm Sam sent Kevin towards Barnsley with another phone call, which then sent him to Sheffield in South Yorkshire. So a really convoluted ransom drop here. But every step of the way Kevin was being followed by police. However, as the evening wore on, the British weather came in. Dense fog descended on the north of England and the police completely lost sight of Kevin's car. The fog also messed with their radio communication, so they lost that as well.
Speaker 1:Kevin was on his own on a trip where he later described to court in being a state of panic and totally frightened. I'm not surprised. Nevertheless, he persevered and ended up driving along a bridleway like a footpath that allows us horses in South Yorkshire. According to an article in the Independent newspaper, there were a few traffic cones and signs like staked into the ground along this bridleway, which had shipways written on them, sort of directing Kevin where to go. Now, the last cone Kevin saw had a note attached to it. The note told Kevin to change the money into a cloth bag and leave it on a tray on a wall nearby. The note also said that the money wouldn't be collected until after Kevin had left. Moving the money into a cloth bag was presumably Sam's trying to make sure there wasn't a tracker in the bag, which there apparently was. The wall was part of a bridge that was over a disused railway line more trains again, and after Kevin left, sam's pulled the tray and collected the money. Police were nowhere to be seen. Now it turns out this bridleway was near the Dove Valley Trail and Sam's was on this trail. After he collected the money, he hopped on a scooter, which he then rode to his car, presumably so if anyone saw him, police would be looking for someone on a scooter rather than a car. He got in his car with his money and started driving to Newark. He initially buried the money right at the end of his garden in Sutton-on-Trent, next to the railway line.
Speaker 1:Now, at this moment, from the police point of view, the whole ransom drop operation was a total failure. They had lost the money, lost their man and not got Stephanie back. The hope for her safe return was waning. However, little did the police know that Sam's was actually about to be true to his word and let Stephanie go. After the ransom drop and Sam's got away with his money, he made his way back to his workshop in Newark.
Speaker 1:Stephanie describes in her book how Sam's came back and declared that he was going to take her home. I cannot even imagine the relief that she felt then. He put her in his car, bound and blindfolded, and proceeded to leave the workshop in Newark. Now, apparently, sam's had originally planned on dropping her at a police station or near a pay phone, but he said that he was going to drop her as close to her own house as possible because we wouldn't want anyone to get hold of you, would we? Oh, what an absolute creep here. I really think that by this point Sams had convinced himself that Stephanie actually liked him, and some say that he'd fallen in love with her. I think that he thought so much of himself that he actually thought that that would be possible Gross. Anyway, sam's continued driving and dropped Stephanie off about 200 yards from her house on her road. He said that she could take the blindfold off but keep her eyes shut as she got out of the car. And in one final awful act, stephanie describes how Sam said give me a kiss. Then, before she got out of the car, like they were a dating couple or something, she did just so she could leave safely, and then got out With wobbly legs, hardly able to see anything, due to being blindfolded so much.
Speaker 1:This is what Stephanie said about that moment in her book Quote. I couldn't focus on anything. All around me, the street lamps were swirling and my legs could barely hold me up. I'd intended to run like a bat out of hell for home but found I could only stumble along like a drunk. Fortunately, I knew where I was going Down the road, round the corner, into the garden and up to the front door. She continues in her book quote I hurled myself at it, banging on the knocker and ringing the bell at the same time.
Speaker 1:Within seconds the door opened, but I didn't recognise the man who was there. I began to think that I was in an awful nightmare. I'd never seen this man before in my life. Yet this was my house. Suddenly, behind him, I saw my dad. He pushed the man out of the way, reached out and pulled me into this house in one fluid movement. By the way, the man who opened the door of the house is the family liaison officer or Flo for the family. Apparently, he'd never seen a photo of Stephanie, so he didn't recognise her when he opened the door. I mean, that seems really ridiculous, and I'm sure now that Flo's at least know what the victim looks like. Anyway, back to Stephanie coming home. When her dad pulled her into the house he said quote "'It's our Stephanie'. He yelled upstairs to where my mother was waiting she's home, thank you Soon.
Speaker 1:As Stephanie walked into her house after being held captive for eight days, police immediately told her mum and dad not to touch her. They said she would have evidence on her that needed to be collected. Stephanie described it as being treated like a walking crime scene. So she was able to sit down but not hug or even touch her parents. To me, this is just heartbreaking. On the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast, she very diplomatically said that she understood the need to collect evidence, but she at least wanted to be able to hold her mum's hand, and I really hope and know that victims aren't treated like this anymore. There was no compassion, there was a one-track thought about collecting evidence and nothing else. There could definitely have been a balanced way to approach this which enabled Stephanie to be comforted by her parents, but also for the police to preserve evidence.
Speaker 1:A female police officer arrived at Stephanie's house to do the evidence collection and Stephanie describes this process in her book, quote she took samples of hair, samples scraped from beneath my finger and toenails, and swabs from my hands and feet. The female police officer asked Stephanie if there'd been any sexual contact and she said no. Now, as we know from part one, this isn't true. Michael Sams raped Stephanie on that first night that he kidnapped her and it would actually be a secret that Stephanie kept for many years until she wrote her book. She didn't say it at Sam's trial either.
Speaker 1:You might be questioning why she didn't disclose the rape, but at the point of asking, stephanie was in a room with her mum, who was distraught at the idea that she'd been touched by him. She was also enduring an examination and evidence collection, standing with her clothes off in her living room and all she wanted to do was shower and crawl into bed. She calculated that if she disclosed the rape there and then there would be an intimate investigation and examination, she just she really didn't want that. In her book she says, quote I was desperate to wash away the stink and grime of my eight days in captivity and the thought of having to undergo any type of internal examination would have been the last straw, and I really hope this is a lesson for police on how to deal with victims of crime, having consideration about how and when they ask them about any sexual assault. I, like many of you I'm sure, can totally understand why Stephanie did not disclose rape at that point. You, I'm sure, can totally understand why Stephanie did not disclose rape at that point.
Speaker 1:After showering, stephanie said that she shampooed her hair furiously and scrubbed like every inch of her body. She was taken to a private hospital, the Priory, to be away from the press, who would soon be on their doorstep. Police said that debriefing from what she'd just experienced would take days rather than hours. This debriefing would happen after something else, though. Now I remember earlier in the episode I talked about the deal that police struck with the media, that if they didn't write anything about the kidnapping, then the police would grant them access to Stephanie if she came back. Well, they were about to make good on that deal.
Speaker 1:A mere 12 hours after she returned home, stephanie was whisked off to face the nation's media for a press conference. Still not having been officially interviewed by police and having just been given a sedative by a doctor to help her stay calm, stephanie faced a room full of journalists. According to her book, the police did say that they could postpone it if she wanted, but she described how she was still on an adrenaline high and also that she severely underestimated the interest there would be in her story. She talks on the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast about how when she got to the police sort of training centre she saw all of these like you know news vans, like cars, and was like, oh, I wonder what's going on. And she just had no idea that they were all there to see her. She thought it would be a couple of local journalists. So I'm sure you can imagine how confronting it was where she was in a room full of the nation's press. Now hear from Andy Whittaker here about his reflections on the press conference.
Speaker 3:What I remember is the press conference. I wasn't there but I remember the mass coverage of it. I remember how ordinary Stephanie seemed. You know she'd been through the most horrific ordeal and really we hadn't learned that. But you know that she's been through. She's been kidnapped, been through the most horrific ordeal. We didn't realize how horrific until later. And then she's thrust in front of the media and is just really natural.
Speaker 1:I think that's what I remember about just being a person like me and on the kidnapping of stephanie slater podcast, andy speaks to dr julia shaw, who's a criminal psychologist, and asks her about the press conference. Julia talked about how, because the press conference happened before stephanie had been officially interviewed and debriefed by the police, it could have affected her recollections. Being asked questions like how did it feel to be abducted, what was the worst part, could apparently have created false memories for Stephanie, and whether it did or not we will never know Now. Whatever the impact of the press conference, I really, really hope that that would never happen today. Although they would say that they had Stephanie's cooperation, police should have been able to see the difficult position they put her in following a horrifically traumatic experience, and police did later admit that it was a mistake to hold the press conference so soon after Stephanie came home. In the days and weeks that followed, stephanie continued her debriefs with the police. She described Sam's as much she could and police created a sketch of him to share with the public. Stephanie and her family also had to cope with the press basically being camped outside their house. In an interview on the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast, stephanie talks about how she was advised to choose a national newspaper to work with and then the others would leave her alone. So she chose to work with the Sun and talked in her book about how they treated her well and that the other papers did leave her alone as well.
Speaker 1:As the investigation continued, police linked Stephanie's kidnapping with the kidnapping and murder of Julie Dart. The ransom notes, the directing people to various train stations and the complicated ransom instructions all seemed to fit and West Midland, west Yorkshire and West Midlands police started working the case together. West Yorkshire and West Midlands Police started working the case together. The police investigation continued and by February 1993, they decided to feature the cases of Julie and Stephanie on BBC Crime Watch. Now I'm sure lots of you know what Crime Watch is, but for any of my overseas listeners it's a BBC programme that's been running since 1984 and it basically reconstructs major unsolved crimes in order to gain information from the public which might help them solve the case.
Speaker 1:Now, on Crimewatch, police didn't only have a sketch of Sams from speaking to Stephanie, but they also had a recording of his voice. Unbeknownst to Sams, he was being recorded when he was talking to Kevin Watts in Shipways. He has quite a distinctive accent. So that was a really important piece of evidence for the police. They also talked on Crime Watch about how he had a red car and seemed to have an in-depth knowledge of trains and the railways. Now a woman called Susan Oak missed Crime Watch when it was shown live, but recorded it, presumably on VHS, and watched it the next day. She was Michael Sam's first wife and as soon as she saw the sketch and heard the voice, particularly how he said never mind, she knew immediately that it was him. She called the police straight away. Here's Andy Whittaker again talking about sam's ex-wife shopping him to the police. You know, a nice uh element of the story is that he was actually caught because of his ex-wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know she sort of had that final say over his fate, and I think one of her, one of his children as well, uh where she clearly knew exactly who he was as soon as she heard that was he's got such a distinctive voice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and he obviously didn't know when he was. As soon as she heard that voice.
Speaker 3:He's got such a distinctive voice and he obviously didn't know when he was calling the estate agent that day, that the police were even involved. But not only were they involved, but they put a phone tap on there, they got the recording device on and thank goodness they had, because if they hadn't, I wonder whether he would have got away with it. Part of me thinks, you know, everyone gets caught eventually, and he was so blatant about the kind of things that he was doing and his railway connections. But when you speak to the police, they didn't put a lot of this together. They didn't have any clue who he was for quite some time and although there were lots of other things, avenues they were working on, that may have got them to Michael Sams eventually. So, yeah, if it hadn't been for that phone call and and his wife, his ex-wife recognizing his voice, yeah, that was, that was the big breakthrough.
Speaker 1:It really was apparently Sams and his current wife were watching crime watch Live that night and she mentioned to him how he sounded a bit like that man. He had a red car and he loved trains. That's weird, isn't it? Sam said that they might get a visit from the police and went out that night, returning the next morning. Apparently he was digging up the ransom money from their garden and moving it somewhere else. He could probably sense that the net was closing in on him. Police went to Sam's workshop in Newark the next day after they received the tip from Susan and arrested Sam for the kidnap and murder of Julie and the kidnap of Stephanie. Stephanie and Julie's family were told they've got him In June 1993, so about a year and a half after Stephanie Slater had been kidnapped and a couple of years after Julie Dart had been kidnapped and murdered.
Speaker 1:Michael Sams went on trial in Nottingham Crown Court. In that time Stephanie had gone to meet Julie Dart's family. She said that she felt the love for Julie when she met them and could see that her and her mother Lynn were clearly friends as well as mother and daughter. We talked about that in episode one, how close they were. In her book Stephanie talked about the guilt she felt for surviving when Julie didn't. She talked about the strange months in between Sam's arrest and trial. She refused all offers of psychiatric help, sometimes because she thought she could deal with it on her own and sometimes because she didn't want to start opening up the Pandora's box of what happened to her. She also talked in her book about how she kept pinching herself, not to harm herself but to remind herself that she was still alive. I can't imagine what those months were like for her. In her book, stephanie says quote every day when I woke, before even opening my eyes, I was immediately aware of a huge cloud of anxiety pressing down on me. I can't imagine the pressure, but also the cloud that must have consumed her. She talked about how she tried to go back to work at Shipways but just couldn't, and I can really see that. So back to the trial of Sam's. Although he pleaded guilty to kidnapping Stephanie in black mailing Shipways, he pleaded not guilty to kidnapping and murdering Julie. So the trial had to go ahead.
Speaker 1:The jury heard from various witnesses, including police officers and Julie's boyfriend Dominic, which presented evidence to link them to Julie's kidnapping. This evidence included some bricks that were matched to his workshop that were used to weigh down some ransom letters he left, as well as some diluted blood from Julie that they found. Sam's actually stated during the trial that he had an accomplice who he wouldn't name, who he said killed Julie, not him. He talked about him with Stephanie when she was kept captive. He said that he was really horrible and much worse than him. Stephanie was terrified of this unnamed accomplice throughout the time that she was held by Sam's. He maintained the story about his accomplice throughout the trial and I wonder if there was something psychological here about like he couldn't face that aspect of himself, that he was the cold-blooded murderer. So he sort of said that it was someone else who did it. And it turned out that before kidnapping Stephanie, sams had tried to kidnap another female estate agent, but gave up on the plan when she arrived to the viewing with a trainee and a builder in the house next door struck up a conversation with Sams. So would surely remember him.
Speaker 1:And although we didn't hear about it during the trial, in the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast you do hear an interview with Tina Sams, his third wife and wife that he lived with when he committed his horrific crimes against Julie and Stephanie. She told a TV show that she had absolutely no idea what he was doing and begged forgiveness from Julie's mum and Stephanie. Idea what he was doing and begged forgiveness from Julie's mum and Stephanie. She also talked about how controlling Sam was. Apparently we talked about this in part one he was very controlling about how she stacked the cupboards and folded his socks, and remember that this case took place in the early 90s and so maybe that awareness of domestic abuse and coercive control wasn't really understood. And I just I do wish that his controlling ways with women were investigated and explored a bit more, as it could have helped people understand his behaviour and what he thought of women. Ie not much Back to the trial, where Stephanie also gave evidence.
Speaker 1:She told the jury how she was kidnapped and how she was kept in that workshop in the wheelie bin coffin for all those days. The one thing she didn't tell was that she had been raped by Sam's. Stephanie talks in her book about how she intended to give her evidence at the trial and then not go back, but once she saw Sam's in court crying and how pathetic and small he was, she decided to stay. She was so angry with him, she knew him to be arrogant and superior and she was sure that he was crying just for the jury. Sams himself gave evidence during the trial, admitting to kidnapping Stephanie but insisting that he wished her no harm. He continued to state that he had nothing to do with the murder of Julie and that it was done by his accomplice. He snivelled and cried throughout giving evidence and referring to his crocodile tears. The prosecutor took him to town and, according to Stephanie's book, said quote when you built that box, were you crying? No, he said. When you put her in that box, were you crying? No, he said. When you put her in that box, were you crying? No, he said. When you told her there were electrodes there, were you crying? No, he said.
Speaker 1:After all the evidence was heard, it took the jury just three hours to convict Sams of both the kidnapping of Stephanie Slater but also the kidnapping and murder of Julie Dart. After the verdict was delivered, the judge stated quote you are an extremely dangerous and evil man. The jury has convicted you of murder, a murder in cold blood. Convicted you of murder a murder in cold blood. He continued quote Stephanie's survival was entirely due to her own remarkable courage and qualities of character, which have won the admiration and respect of everyone. Sam's was later given four life sentences and sent to prison. Days after being convicted, sam's called police from prison and admitted to the kidnap and murder of Julie Dart.
Speaker 1:Now, sadly, when Sams went to prison, it wasn't the last that the public heard of him. He continued with his entitled BS and violence, and here's just a few things that this bag of crap got up to in prison. In October 1995, he attacked a female probation officer with a metal spike. He faced trial for this in 1997 and had another eight years added to his sentence. This shows his continued capacity for physical violence against women and the need to be like the big man. He was also awarded £4,000 damages when the prison service lost his artificial leg during a transfer.
Speaker 1:Unsurprisingly, there was a lot of public outrage about this. He brought a civil case because he believed that his prison bed was too hard, and in 2007, he sent a letter to Inside Times saying how much better off OAPs were in prison than out in the community. I mean, can this guy? I literally cannot with this guy. Possibly one of the worst things he did after he went to prison, though, was when Stephanie's book came out a few years after her experience and it talked about the rape that he did to her. He sued Stephanie for libel, saying that it was consensual. He sued her. I mean honestly, this guy. Obviously he didn't win, but just how horrific for her to have to go through that because she was telling the truth in her book. And you know, this guy is just an awful human being. So he's now now about eight, he's over 80 years old and he's still in prison, quite rightly.
Speaker 3:But once a prison term, so someone's sentence has expired, they have a parole review, and here's Andy Whittaker again talking about Sam's parole reviews and what happened at the latest one but the way the parole works, is it, um, it can be just a paper exercise, or it can be a hearing where he can actually give evidence, or other people can give evidence, um, and naturally, once a prison term expires, you come up for parole. It's not, they don't choose to give you a parole review because they think your case is, you know know, a good one for being released. It's something that automatically happens at the end of a sentence. So every couple of years he will have some kind of parole review. So there'll probably be one this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just thinking that actually because it was 2023, wasn't it yeah?
Speaker 3:So the last one was significant because it was a hearing. So he I think he gave evidence. Certainly his social workers and his prison officers gave evidence. So they ask all kinds of people their opinion and then the parole board has to make a decision on. Fundamentally, is this person, is this offender, still a danger to society? Yeah, can they be managed effectively if they were to be let out into the world? And their conclusion was no, he is still a danger to society and it's not safe for him to be released. And that was despite all kinds of suggestions being put forward about extra checks and balances to keep an eye on where he would be, who he would be interacting with, all those kind of things you can control when somebody is out on release.
Speaker 1:But even despite all of that, the parole board felt he was still too dangerous. Since sam's now gets parole hearings every couple of years and he had his last one in 2023 I expect he'll get another one later on this year I truly hope that the result will be the same and that he remains in prison. He does not deserve to be anywhere else for what he did to Julie, stephanie and their family, and one of the most heartbreaking aspects of this case for me is that Sam's is still alive. He gets to live his life in luxury compared to other older people, according to him. Yet Julie is dead. Her life taken by him, and Stephanie died just aged 50 years old, just feels so unfair and a real injustice about their stories. We are going to finish this episode by talking about the legacies of stephanie and julie, and I think it's safe to say that Stephanie really never got over what happened to her.
Speaker 1:After the trial, her and her friend Stacey moved to the Isle of Wight. Stephanie just wanted to get away from the attention and also from everyone knowing her name. She got a job as a tour guide for one of her favourite tourist spots in the island and, although got recognised sometimes, was mostly left alone. She even changed her name for a bit to Phoenix Rhiannon. She changed it back to Stephanie later on, but I think she just didn't want to be Stephanie Slater for a while. Her friend Stacey talked a lot to Andy on the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast and said that Stephanie wasn't ever really happy again. She was apparently paranoid about cleaning herself all the time, which I can understand. She was a bit of a hypochondriac about small health issues but often ignored bigger health issues.
Speaker 1:Stephanie's calling in her life came through a chance meeting with a police officer.
Speaker 1:When we talked earlier about how stephanie was treated after she was taken home by sam's, I wonder if you thought like I did that it seemed very lacking in compassion and thought for stephanie and the trauma that she went through just not even being able to hold her parents hand when she got home seems particularly cruel.
Speaker 1:Now, when Stephanie met this police officer, it was actually at her mother's funeral. He said that it would have been so powerful to have heard from her during his training to really understand what it's like for victims and how police should be supporting them. And there started what Stephanie called her purpose in life. She started by talking to that police officer's team, then went out to other police forces and then travelling the country talking to many, many police officers. She told them about her experiences as a victim of kidnapping, but also about when she got home and how she was treated as a walking crime scene without being able to get comfort from her parents. She also talked about the press conference and other things that happened to her, and there were a couple of things that Andy Whittaker reflected on in terms of the police response to victims of crime when we spoke and here he is talking about what police could have done differently with Stephanie.
Speaker 3:So a couple of things I know would be different and certainly had an impact on Stephanie. The first one was this deal that they did with the media. So, because the police needed the media to be on side, not to report that she was missing in order to protect her life, they did a sort of deal where they said you don't report anything, but then if she comes back to us, as soon as she comes back to us, we will let you in on the investigation as it's happening, and then we will reveal her to you at the end. I mean, I honestly don't know if this was a written-down deal or what, but the police felt they were obligated to produce Stephanie for a press conference, and so I think it was about 12 hours, or maybe less than 12 hours, after her return. She returns to her home, sees her family, is whisked off them by the police and then is thrust in front of the nation's media.
Speaker 1:After 12 hours of experiencing horrific crime, this long ordeal, she is exposed nationally to the media. It just seems absolutely baffling.
Speaker 3:And I have no idea how much say she had in that. I feel not very much and I know that her friend Stacey felt not very much. She felt when she watched the press conference she was just looking at Stephanie, feeling she's out of her depth, she doesn't know what's going on, she's just come back from being kidnapped. This isn't right. And she said she obviously knew Stephanie really well. She could tell by her mannerisms and the way she was behaving that she was just confused about what was going on. Not really there and yeah, I don't think she they may have gone. Oh, we're going to have a press conference tomorrow. It'll help catch the man who did this. It starts at this time. I don't know, I wasn't there. I just know that many of the people involved don't feel she had a say in whether she wanted to do that, because I can't imagine she'd want it. You know, I can imagine how they might be able to persuade her to do it, but I can't imagine that she would actually want to be there in front of the media.
Speaker 1:But that is something that wouldn't happen now?
Speaker 3:No, I don't think it would.
Speaker 1:It's a good thing.
Speaker 3:In fact two things. I don't think they'd have ever named her yeah that's a really good thing.
Speaker 3:All the way through this, the media knew it was stephanie slater, even when they weren't allowed to report any of the stuff. They were getting daily updates. They knew it was stephanie slater and then, when she came back, I don't think there was any question that she would not be named. But if you think about I mean, victims of a sexual crime in this country are protected by law. At that point they didn't know she was the victim of a sexual problem, but she'd still been through a horrendous ordeal and privacy wise, and if you think about the way we now treat privacy, um, in this world, I can't imagine she would have been named and I think they'd have just said a, a kidnapped victim. Or they might have said she was an estate agent because they perhaps needed to reveal that. Yeah, I don't think they'd have revealed who she actually was and imagine the difference that would have made to her life afterwards because she changed, because they perhaps needed to reveal that.
Speaker 1:I don't think they'd have revealed who she actually was, and imagine the difference that would have made to her life afterwards. Because she changed her name, didn't she? We talked about how she moved to the Isle of Wight to get away from everything, and actually she wouldn't maybe have had to go through some of those things if she had that anonymity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean that shows, doesn't it the changing the name thing, the name Stephanie Slater came with baggage that she didn't want at that point and, yeah, she could have potentially gone on to live a life without any attention because nobody knew who she was. Point, and hopefully something that wouldn't happen today. Definitely not with victims of sexual assault or sexual offence, but, um, thinking about victims of kidnapping as well. In particular, it needs to be considered, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, it does. It does and you know that that person will be attached. Their name as a victim will be attached to what happened to them for the rest of their life and I totally agree with Andy here.
Speaker 1:Stephanie had no choice in her name being released and therefore being infamously linked to Sam's for the rest of her life. The other thing that Stephanie and Julie's story highlights is the safety of women at work. Stephanie wasn't the first female estate agent to go missing or to be abducted. I'm sure lots of you will know the story of Susie Lamplew, who was also a 25-year-old female estate agent, who went missing in 1986. Susie has never been found, and her parents established the Susie Lamplew Trust charity, which works to campaign for women's safety and against stalking and harassment.
Speaker 1:In the Kidnapping of Stephanie Slater podcast, andy talks to Susie's brother, who said that even now, not much has changed in terms of women and their safety at work, and sadly I agree. I'll link to the Susie Lampley Trust website in the episode notes, as they also run the stalking helpline and have some brilliant resources and information too, so do check them out. Back to Stephanie her work with the police has had a lasting impact on how police work with victims of crime and is a hugely powerful legacy that she has left. In 2017, aged just 50 years old, stephanie Slater died of cancer that was diagnosed just 11 days before we're going to hear from Andy for the last time on Stephanie's legacy and the impact she made on this world.
Speaker 3:So I spoke to police officers who'd worked with her about the kind of training that she did with officers. So what happened was that when Stephanie returned home, when she was dropped on the same street as her house by Michael Sams, she was then left to try and find her own front door. She got into the house. They called the police. In fact, there was already an officer in the house stationed with them, so the police were already there to some extent and instead of treating Stephanie as a human being who'd just been through the most awful ordeal and how amazing it was to have her back, it was like this woman is a crime scene. You cannot touch her. You know, you can't be hugged by your mum, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:So Stephanie, who just wanted a hug and wanted to feel human again after what she'd been through, was denied all of that by the police. To what she'd been through, was denied all of that by the police. And on one side you can see why. You know, we know about DNA and we know about all the valuable stuff that you can get from someone who's been through a crime like that. So it is important that happens, but there needs to be more understanding about what she needed at that point as a victim, rather than just the total focus on what the police needed to catch the perpetrator.
Speaker 3:And that's what Stephanie's work was all about. It was about how you treat victims of crime, how you make them feel valuable when they come back and, yes, they are crime scenes but how you balance that correctly, and the police officers that I spoke to said that she had made a huge difference in the work that she'd done. She spoke to quite a number of police forces about what she'd been through and then how the police had treated her afterwards, and so many of those forces changed the way in which they worked as a result, and the one woman I spoke to who was at the time, involved with the association of chief police officers, as it was then so this is the the body, if you, of senior officers who control and set the agenda on how police forces work she said that the work she did was extraordinary and it changed everything about policing in this country in terms of how we treat victims. So you've got to say that's an amazing legacy to have.
Speaker 1:This episode is dedicated to Julie and Stephanie, to the impact they had on their family and friends and the difference they made in their lives. We remember them. I'm going to end this episode with an extract from Stephanie's book which feels particularly poignant Quote after Michael Sam's trial, julie Dart's grandmother, a lovely grey-haired woman, took me to one side. Dart's grandmother, a lovely grey-haired woman, took me to one side. Our Julie's gone. She told me that you have your whole life in front of you. Go out and enjoy it. He kept you prisoner for eight days. Love, don't give him the rest of your life and I won't.
Speaker 1:This has been Killer in the Family podcast written and produced by me, claire Laxton. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Don't forget to send me any comments or questions to my insta at killerinthefamilypod or through a text via a link in the episode notes. Do let me know any stories you'd like me to cover as well. Also, don't forget that you can buy me a coffee if you like the podcast and help support it's running. The link is in the episode notes and thank you so much to everyone for your support so far. Until then, I've been Claire Laxton no-transcript.
