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Killer in the family podcast
A true crime podcast exploring men who kill their families.
Killer in the family podcast
Episode 58 - Marie James, her children, and Emily Mather
VOTE for Killer in the family in this year’s True Crime Awards Listener’s Choice category – it only takes 2 minutes – thank you! True Crime Awards 2025 - Listeners' Choice
On the 3 March 1892 in Melbourne Australia police discovered the dead body of a woman called Emily Mather. Over a week later her killed was captured, convicted and executed in Australia in May 1892. At the same time police in England found the dead bodies of Marie James and her four children Bertha, Mary, Sidney and Leala in a house in Rainhill near Liverpool. They had been killed the year before by husband and father Frederick Deeming. The same man who had killed Emily Mather. A family annihilator and bigamist, Deeming was a career criminal who made a life from duping and killing the women he deemed to love. He was also connected to another infamous serial killer who haunted the streets of London in Victorian England.
This is the story of Marie James and her children Bertha, Mary, Sidney and Lila, and Emily Mather.
Information and support
· Samaritans UK Contact Us | Samaritans
· Women’s Aid Home - Women's Aid
· Mental health support USA Mental Health America | Homepage | Mental Health America
References
Casebook: Jack the Ripper - The Life and Crimes of Frederick Bailey Deeming
The Australian Ripper: Frederi–Psycho Killer: Shocking True Crime Stories – Apple Podcasts
THE DEEMING MURDERS OF 1891 – Ormskirk Historical Society
Emily Mather | Monument Australia
Marie (James) Deeming (bef.1853-1891) | WikiTree FREE Family Tree
Memorial for Victorian murder victims? | St Helens Star
Credits
Hosted and created by Clare Laxton @ladylaxton
Produced by: Clare Laxton
Killer in the family podcast (buzzsprout.com)
Music from Pixabay.
Killer in the family podcast is a total labour of love. If you'd like to support me please buy me a coffee or tea!
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/clarelaxton
Hi there and welcome to Killer in the Family podcast. I'm your host, claire Laxton. Welcome to episode 58 of Killer in the Family. And boy, do I have a case for you today. We are going way back in time and it is a truly unbelievable story. But before we delve in, just a reminder that you can vote for Killer in the Family podcast as listener's choice at this year's True Crime Awards. The link is in the episode notes and I'll put it on my socials too. It takes just a couple of minutes and you have until the 11th of May to cast your vote. So let's get into the episode, for today we are heading back to Victorian times, in which is the oldest case we've covered on the pod so far.
Speaker 1:On the 3rd of March 1892 in Melbourne, australia, police discovered the dead body of a woman called Emily Mather. Over a week later, her killer was captured, convicted and executed in Australia in May 1892. At the same time, police in England found the dead bodies of Marie James and her four children, bertha Mary, sydney and Lila, in a house in Rainhill near Liverpool. They had been killed the year before by husband and father Frederick Deeming the same man who had killed Emily Mather A family annihilator and a bigamist Deeming was a career criminal who made a life from duping and killing the women he deemed to love. He was also connected to another infamous serial killer who haunted the streets of London in Victorian England. This is the story of Marie James and her children, bertha Mary, sydney and Lila and Emily Mather. This is not only going to be a tough listen team, but it is going to be a tough Victorian listen to be a tough Victorian listen. This case is the oldest that we've covered on the pod so far and goes way back to the late 1880s 1890s in Victorian England and Australia.
Speaker 1:As usual, all my references and links to information and support are in the episode notes, if you need it. Now just a note before we delve into this case. As I mentioned the introduction, the perpetrator in this episode has been linked to the infamous serial killer in Victorian England who killed and mutilated at least five women. Now you will never hear me say the R word. That is in the name that people have given him, because it's a moniker given to a violent murderer that sensationalises him and forgets about his victims. So when I talk about him in the rest of the episode I'll be calling him Whitechapel Jack, as we don't actually know who he is, but I just wanted to flag that before we carried on, so you know who I'm talking about later on.
Speaker 1:But let's start by talking about Marie. She was born, marie James, in November 1853 in a place called Port Gain in Pembrokeshire in Wales. I hope I pronounced that correctly. It's on the south coast of Wales and in the Victorian era it was quite a prosperous sort of industrial harbour. Marie was just 37 years old when she was killed by her husband.
Speaker 1:Now it's really important for us to talk about what life was like in the Victorian era at this point. Although the reign of Queen Victoria from 1837 to 1901 saw great changes, such as the industrial revolution and the rise of the middle classes, there was still a great deal of poverty for some, as things like workhouses still existed for those without employment, and also the role of women was still very much in the home and they had very few rights. For example, if they wanted to divorce, they wouldn't be entitled to anything, and although the movement for women's right to vote really gained momentum towards the end of the 19th century, they still didn't have that right, so their societal and legal rights were really limited at this point. Now back to Marie. Now I was really excited to find a website which explored local history of where Marie grew up, because on this website it started with a quote. That said quote. There's more than enough written about Marie's husband in books and on websites, but there's scant information on her. I'm focusing here on what little there is to know. Yes, I'm so glad that I found this website and thank you to whoever created it for trying to focus on Marie and her story.
Speaker 1:Now, marie had a younger brother called Thomas and two older sisters called Martha and Bertha. She grew up in a relatively poor family, with her father working in local brickworks, I think. According to that website, she could apparently read and write as well, so obviously had some schooling, which not every child would have had at this time. Now it's thought that her mother died, sometimes before she turned 20, as she then left with her sister Martha to go to Birkenhead to take up the job of being a domestic servant, which a lot of young women did in those days. Now some might think it's strange for someone from Wales to travel to Birkenhead, which is near Liverpool in England, for a job, but they're actually quite close. My mum grew up in West Kirby on the Wirral, which is near Birkenhead, and when we went walking along the coast when I was young you could see whales like from the coast. So they are actually closer than you think.
Speaker 1:Now Marie and her sister, martha, actually ended up marrying two brothers. Martha married a guy called Alfred Deeming and Marie married Frederick Deeming. Both brothers were from Leicestershire but had relocated to Birkenhead. We'll talk more about Frederick Deeming later, but Marie and Frederick married on the 28th of February 1881 in St Paul's Church, tranmere in Cheshire, which is in the northwest of England, and she started her life with the man who, unbeknownst to everyone, would become her killer. Her life with the man who, unbeknownst to everyone, would become her killer.
Speaker 1:Now, in a movement that would become pretty familiar to Marie throughout her marriage with Deeming, he, pretty soon after they were married in August 1881, set off on a ship called the Verius, destined for Australia, with a plan to start a life there. So he went on his own and his plan was to send for his wife when he sort of established there and got a job. Now, australia in the 1880s was experiencing a bit of a boom, with lots of immigrants travelling there to start a new life, with sort of rumours of prosperity and a better life than in England. And Deeming did get a job there as a gas fitter in Sydney and he sent for Marie. Now she made the 80-day sea crossing and arrived in July 1882 only to find that her husband new husband was in jail for stealing from his employer just two months earlier. So she waited it out alone in a new country until her husband was freed.
Speaker 1:Marie and Deeming went on to have two children in Australia a daughter called Bertha, who was born on the 22nd of April 1884, and a second daughter, mary, was born on the 29th of March 1886. Marie gave birth to her third child, a son called Sidney, at sea on a boat when she was making her way back to England in 1888 alone with her three children. Sidney was just five years old when he was killed by his father, was just five years old when he was killed by his father. Now Marie was on the boat on her own because Deeming got into trouble again in Australia and decided to go to South Africa, leaving Marie to make the long journey back to England with two young children and a newborn. Oh, I just cannot with this guy. Marie gave birth to her fourth child in 1890, who was another daughter called Martha Lila, and this when she was back in the Northwest England. Now, just to point out that there were different spellings of Martha's name Some were like Lela, like L-E-A-L-A, l-e-a-l-a. Lila, so Martha. So I'm going to call her Lila, which seems to be the most often one that was used, but I just wanted to flag that there are different spellings of that name. Lila was just 18 months old when she was killed by her father.
Speaker 1:Now we're going to talk about Frederick and his exploits across the globe very soon, but just for now I'll finish talking about Marie with a quote from the history website that I found, quote we still know very little about Marie. Contemporary descriptions and portraits suggest she was sturdily built, with olive skin and dark hair. She was, without a doubt, enterprising, brave and adventurous. She coped with long sea voyages, precarious living conditions, isolation, insecurity, poverty and fear. She bore four children in challenging circumstances and cared for them until her husband's savagery ended all their lives. Marie James was not simply a victim. She was, in her own way, heroic. But married to such a monstrous man, she'd never had a chance, and I really think that description sort of encapsulates everything about Marie, and I feel like she had a really brave and strong heart, definitely.
Speaker 1:Now let's talk about another victim in this story, emily Mather. Again, there's not loads out there about her, but I'll tell you what I can. So Emily was born Emily Lydia Mather, in July 1864 to parents John and Dove Mather in Rainhill near Liverpool in England. She was just 27 years old when she was killed by her husband on Christmas Eve in 1891. And just to note that, some sources say she was 26, but I think it works out that she was 27 years old when she was killed. So Emily met Deeming when he rented a house in Rainhill in the summer of 1891. Her father was the letting agent and she was swept off her feet by Deeming. They would be married by September that year and then off on a ship to Australia where she would start a life with her new husband that she must have been so excited about. Sadly, her happiness was short-lived.
Speaker 1:Now let's talk about Frederick Deeming, the perpetrator of the story, and how many lives he ruined. Frederick Bailey Deeming was born on the 30th of July 1853 in Ashby de la Juche in Leicestershire. So Ashby de la Juche is a town in Leicestershire in the Midlands of England and it's got its unique name from being owned by the Le Juche family and before then around 1086 it was just known as Ashby. So it's one of those quirky little town names in England that we get quite a lot Now. Deeming was the son of Thomas Deeming and Anne Bailey and he was one of seven children in the family. Now I saw a source one source that said he was one of 10 children, but mostly I can just find the names of seven siblings there. So I'm not sure if there were more, but you know a big family.
Speaker 1:There isn't loads out there about his childhood, but it said that he was treated quite badly by his father, who was very violent and angry, and that Frederick actually ran away at the age of 16. Apparently as well, his father attempted to take his own life at least four times and ended up dying in a workhouse. So you know, really sad and probably quite terrifying and traumatic time for the family. Apparently, deeming's mother Anne was quite strict and religious. She was a sunday school teacher who instilled a very strict religious upbringing on deeming and his siblings. He was said to be obsessed with sins and punishment sort of. Throughout his life. Deeming was also apparently known, as you know in quotes, mad fred due to his abnormal behaviour when he was young. Now we'll talk about some of his behaviour throughout the rest of his life, but I also read that he lived with the sexually transmitted infection of syphilis, which can affect someone's mental health if left untreated.
Speaker 1:According to one history website, he's rumoured to have been in America after he ran away when he was 16, where he got into a fight and killed someone in Philadelphia. This is unconfirmed, though I couldn't find it on any other sources, but what we do know is that he moved to Birkenhead with his brothers, albert and Walter, where he worked as a plumber and gas fitter, and we know that he married Marie James and his brother Albert married her sister, martha James. The Casebook website describes Deeming as quote a hard-faced, ruggedly handsome man with fair hair, ginger moustache, blue eyes and possessing an engaging way with words. He could, on occasions, pass himself off as a gentleman of aristocratic birth, and women quickly succumb to his charms. So I think we have here someone who's very charismatic, if you like, and use that to his advantage constantly, be it to get money or to get women. And now, although we know him as Frederick Deeming. He actually used lots of aliases throughout his life, mostly to commit crimes or bigamy. His alternative identities, including Baron Swanston obviously thought very highly of himself there Harry Lawson, albert Oliver Williams, frederick Druin and Frederick Dawson. He also sometimes used the surname Ward as well.
Speaker 1:Now, as we know, deeming legged it to Australia as soon as he married Marie, and when she arrived he was serving his conviction for stealing brassware from his employers. After he was freed, him and Marie had their first children, bertha and Mary, and he started a business in Sydney, and that business failed. Apparently, he was committing financial fraud on his own books, so he went back to prison for 14 days and after coming out of prison he was then accused of stealing $60 worth of gold and decided he should probably leave Australia to probably escape the police who were looking for him, and he travelled to Cape Colony in South Africa and, as we know, at the same time Marie was travelling home to England and having her third baby, sydney, on a boat destined for home. While in South Africa, deeming continued his sort of committing petty crimes and fraud, and this included robbing two brothers that he had met, purporting to be a mining engineer in Durban and getting lots of money by fraud, committing fraud again by getting someone to give him advance on a mining endeavour, stealing jewellery and gold. Now somehow Deeming managed to escape without conviction in South Africa and turned back up in Birkenhead in September 1889 to see his wife and children.
Speaker 1:Now, as well as being a fraudster and a petty criminal, leaving people in his wake at every turn, deeming was also a bigamist Twice over, so a trigamist maybe. After marrying Marie in 1881, and after he had returned to England after his failures in Australia and South Africa, deeming married a woman called Helen Matheson, under the name of Henry Lawson, on the 18th of February 1890, in Yorkshire Keep in it, classy there, deeming marrying another woman while your wife has just given birth to your fourth child, and under another alias, albert Oliver Williams. He married a woman called Emily Mather on the 22nd of September 1891 in Lancashire, england, and then travelled with her where they settled in Melbourne in Australia, as we know. So he is a bigamist twice over, using false names and his charms to get women to marry him and not question anything. I'm sure it was harder in those days to sort of connect marriage records, which is why he was able to marry three women at the same time. Basically Throughout all of his travels and marriages he kept up his criminal ways. I think it's only fair to say that Deeming brought unhappiness and chaos wherever he went, only thinking about himself and what he can get out of a situation, not caring who he hurt physically or emotionally and clearly having no regard for his children. I just feel so heartbroken that both Marie and Emily had the poor misfortune to ever meet Frederick Deeming. So this is going to be a tough listen to you. So this is going to be a tough listen to you.
Speaker 1:On the 3rd of March 1892, the owner and estate agent for a house in Windsor, which is a suburb of Melbourne, went to investigate a fireplace in the house because of a strong smell emanating from it. What they found would haunt them for the rest of their lives. I'm sure they found the dead body of Emily Mather buried in the fireplace. The police were called and a post-mortem carried out a few days later found that she had been killed by her throat being cut, though she also had fractured to her skull. Her body had been hidden thoroughly with cement poured on top of her and all traces of the murder eradicated from the house, police started searching for Mr Albert Williams, who they discovered had arrived in Melbourne in the December before alongside Emily. Apparently they had a good description of Williams, who we know is actually Frederick Deeming, and a manhunt ensued. Deeming was arrested on the 12th of March 1892 in Western Australia. He denied having anything to do with the murder of Emily, but some of her belongings were found in his possession and he was sent back to Melbourne to face trial.
Speaker 1:At the same time as Deeming was being hunted by police, news of Emily's murder had reached Rainhill in England and police started investigating a place called Dinham Villa that Deeming had rented, as no one had seen Marie and her children for about eight months. Upon investigation of that house, police found the dead bodies of Marie, bertha, mary, sydney and Lila buried in cement under the fireplace in the villa. They were all in their pyjamas and had had their throats cut, apart from Bertha who had been strangled. Apparently Marie's family thought she and the children were in Brighton for all that time and this is what actually happened over those months in 1891 and 1892. When Deeming returned from South Africa he acquired Dinham Villa in Rainhill and remember that Emily was the letting agent's daughter there. He was apparently seeing Marie sporadically as she visited him for lunch and dinner. On the 25th of July, marie and her four children arrived at dinham villa. Now I don't know if they thought they were going to be moving in there with deeming, but it seems like a good guess, as it would be a good way for deeming to get them all there.
Speaker 1:At this point. Deeming had already started a relationship with emily matha, and remember he was married to heleneson as well. On the evening of the 26th of July 1891, deeming methodically and coldly killed his wife and four children as they slept. He slit their throats and strangled Bertha and buried their bodies underneath the fireplace with cement that he'd already ordered. Just months afterwards, in September, he marries Emily and they make the journey to Australia together. It's thought that he killed Emily on Christmas Eve, 1891, cutting her throat but also delivering many blows to her head before burying her in the fireplace as well.
Speaker 1:He then took on the alias of Baron Swanson and was on the move again to Sydney. On the trip to Sydney he met a woman called Kate Rouncefell who had agreed to marry him. When they got to Western Australia With his new alias and nearly married again, deeming claimed to have a job in a mining company and continued with his petty thefts and fraud as he probably thought he was on his way to starting a new life. This guy I mean this guy he has literally killed his wife, four children and then his other wife, and then, as he was escaping from being a murderer, he gets engaged to another woman. I genuinely I just cannot with this guy. Thankfully, he was caught just before he was about to marry Kate a real close escape for her and was about to face trial for all his wrongdoings.
Speaker 1:The crimes of deeming became completely sensationalised across the globe, with both British and Australian newspapers rushing to get stories and information about him. Before his trial, deeming was tried at Melbourne Supreme Court on the 25th of April 1892, and tried to mount a plea of insanity. This was dismissed, however, and he was found guilty of Emily's murder and sentenced to death. He was hanged in Melbourne on the 23rd of May 1892. Now, I am not a supporter of capital punishment, and although he had committed some horrific crimes, I still would have preferred to see Deming spend the rest of his life in prison than be hanged. This was Victorian times, though, and that is what we did then. I also find it really difficult that he never faced trial for the murders of his wife and children. Now, while Deeming was awaiting his execution, he apparently did lots of writing, including an autobiography. Thankfully that was destroyed upon his execution. No one needs to read his BS excuses for his actions.
Speaker 1:Final instalment of this episode talks about Deeming's possible links to the killings of Whitechapel Jack. Some people have mused that Deeming might actually have been Whitechapel Jack. Now lots of you will be familiar of the crimes of Whitechapel Jack. Now lots of you will be familiar of the crimes of Whitechapel Jack. Between August and November 1888, five women were brutally murdered on the streets of East London, presumably by the same perpetrator who has never officially been found. The five women were Mary Ann Nicholls, annie Chapman, elizabeth Stride, catherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly. There's a great book by Hallie Rubenhold called the Five, which centres these victims rather than the so much that is out there about these murders, which centres the perpetrator. I've linked to it in the episode notes and definitely recommend a read.
Speaker 1:There are a few things that have led to this connection between Deeming and Whitechapel Jack. The main one was that when Deeming was awaiting his execution he wrote a confession letter in which he confessed to the murders of Marie and his children, but also to the last two murders that were carried out by Whitechapel Jack. Police analysed the handwriting of the letters and compared it to that of Whitechapel Jack and thought it could be the same. Others started looking into Deeming's movements and decided that it could have potentially been possible that he was carrying out the murders in Victorian London at the same time as gallivanting around the globe and marrying multiple times in late 1888. Potentially been possible. And finally, when he was awaiting his execution, demon told the prison doctor that he'd gone to look for the sex worker who'd given him syphilis as he wanted to kill her. Considering the crimes of Whitechapel Jack, then, this is quite a clear motive for some of those killings. Although some have discounted him as a suspect for Whitechapel Jack, many still believe that it was Deeming who was killing women in London in Victorian times.
Speaker 1:Now, whatever his actions, we do know that Deeming killed Emily Mather, marie James and his four children. We know that he was a family annihilator, a bigamist and a murderer, and that is how he should be remembered, not as an infamous serial killer. There is a monument to Emily Mather in Australia, and Marie James and her children were buried in an unmarked grave in Rainhill and in 2010, villagers in Rainhill campaigned for a proper memorial for Marie, bertha, mary, sydney and Lila. A local villager said, quote it's a shame that this woman and her four children are lying in an unmarked grave in St Anne's churchyard. Now I couldn't find out if the proper memorial had actually been created, so if anyone does know that, please let me know. This episode is dedicated to Marie James, her children, bertha Mary, sydney and Lila, and Emily Mather, whose lives were cut short by the person who should have loved and protected them the most and whose stories have really been lost as the media focused on that of the perpetrator. We remember them and the lives they could have had.
Speaker 1:This has been Killer in the Family podcast, written and produced by me, claire Laxton. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Don't forget to send any comments or questions to my insta at killer in the family pod or through a text via the link in the episode notes. Do let me know any stories you'd like me to cover as well. Also, don't forget that you can buy me a coffee if you like the podcast and help support it's running. The link is in the episode notes, and thank you so much to everyone for your support so far. Until then, no-transcript.
